House of Ainsley: Out-of-Character Discussion

Yeah. They annoyed me after a while.

OK, more questions. I know there are more than a few differences between 3e and 5e (of which I am proficient)

Does Sylvaea have a Turn Undead function?

No, but as you know, she does have the Rebuke Undead ability.  I'm not sure how Turning and Rebuking work in 5e, but we've been doing it the 3e way thus far; Good (and Good-leaning morally Neutral) Clerics can Turn undead, either compelling them to flee from the Cleric's presence or destroying them outright.  Evil and Evil-leaning Clerics instead Rebuke undead, either paralyzing them with awe or subjecting them to the Cleric's command.

Certain Cleric Domains can also expand such powers further, giving their Clerics the ability to Turn or Rebuke such creatures as elementals, Outsiders, plants or animals, or crumbling and destroying golems, gargoyles, animated objects and other Constructs.

Okay. So is the rebuke a once a day thing? How many times can she do it?

Also, am I blind? Or do i not have a map of the interior?

Wraith wrote:

Okay. So is the rebuke a once a day thing? How many times can she do it?

At her Level and current Charisma, Sylvea can Rebuke Undead three times a day; this supernatural ability will grow more powerful and have more uses per day as Sylvea gains in Level, raises her Charisma or both.

At present, she has already Rebuked Undead once to take command of the armored zombie currently attending her.  So she can Rebuke twice more for this day.  Come the next nightfall*, she can take a full rest (or "long rest," I believe 5e calls it) and pray or commune with her deity to regain all of her Rebuke attempts, as well as to regain all of her spells and prepare new spells in place of previous spells as she deems fit.

* Good Clerics recover and replenish their abilities at sunrise, Evil Clerics do the same at sunset and morally Neutral Clerics can choose to do so at either sunrise or sunset, but the choice is permanent; nothing short of an Alignment Shift will change the Cleric's time of power.

In some contested cases, this standard may be decided by the deity's Alignment instead, in the cases of Good gods or Evil gods; as an example, Clerics of Nerull — the Death God of Murder and Assassination — will always have their time of power at sunset, including Nerull's Chaotic Neutral Clerics.

Wraith wrote:

Also, am I blind? Or do i not have a map of the interior?

RPG-Board seems to be a bit too subtle with its spoiler links.  Did you try clicking the word "Spoiler" between the end of the sketch scroll and Bavatur's pog?



(Be warned: The map is a bit large!  Hence, the Spoilage.   )

AH. Find the map. I didn't realise it was so large!!

Wraith wrote:

AH. Find the map. I didn't realise it was so large!!

I kind of outdid myself a bit...or so I hope.

Right. So.
Shit, I'm in trouble.

What are the specifics of my Rebuke undead? Is it an area of effect, and if so, how many can I catch in it?

I also ask - may I only invoke 1 of my Cleric abilities per day?

What would happen should I cast Sanctuary?

Wraith wrote:

Right. So.
Shit, I'm in trouble.

Trouble is a state of mind!  

Okay, so maybe it's a bit more than that, but...mind over matter, you know?  

Wraith wrote:

What are the specifics of my Rebuke undead? Is it an area of effect, and if so, how many can I catch in it?

Turning and Rebuking are line-of-sight abilities; if the undead creatures can see you, you can Turn or Rebuke them.

This ability's effectiveness is limited only by the Level and Charisma of the character attempting to Turn or Rebuke, and the undead closest to the Cleric/Paladin/True Necromancer/whatever are affected first; in a room with 12 Skeletons, if Sylvea Rebukes them but only rolls well enough to affect eight of them, then the eight skeletons closest to Sylvea will be either paralyzed or dominated from being Rebuked, leaving the eight skeletons furthest away from Sylvea unaffected.

Turning and Rebuking also typically affect the weakest undead first.  So if Sylvea's Rebuke attempt were strong enough to affect 10 Hit Dice of undead, she could take command of up to five zombies (typically 2 Hit Die creatures), but the 8-Hit-Dice vampire standing among the zombies would be completely unaffected.

In the case of Evil Clerics who are commanding or allied with any undead creatures, their ability to Rebuke Undead may also be channeled into two other purposes:

• Bolster Undead.  This use of Rebuking shields the undead against Turning in advance, effectively increasing the creatures' Hit Dice and granting them resistance to Turning.  For example, if Sylvea and Ariean (currently a Level 4 or 4 Hit Die Ghoul) were confronted with a Good Cleric, then Sylvea could use her Rebuke ability on Ariean to improve Ariean's Turn Resistance, so that (depending on the results of Sylvea's Rebuke attempt) Ariean would resist the enemy Cleric's Turn attempt as if she were a ghoul of anywhere from 5 Hit Dice to 8 Hit Dice, thus reducing the chances of the enemy Cleric overcoming those Hit Dice with his Turn check and successfully Turning Ariean.

This use of Rebuking may also reduce the results of being Turned; if the result of the enemy Cleric's Turn check is twice what is needed to affect an undead creature (ie. the Turn attempt being strong enough to repel an undead creature of 8 Hit Dice or more, when Ariean only has 4 Hit Dice), then the undead creature is immediately destroyed rather than being merely repelled.  So even if Sylvea merely Bolstered Ariean to give here the Turn Resistance of a 5-Hit-Die creature, that could spell the difference between being repelled and being destroyed.  So Sylvea's efforts at Bolstering Ariean or any other servile or allied undead creature could be enough to spare an undead creature from being returned to the grave.

• Dispel Turning.  As the name suggests, Turning and Rebuking can negate each other.  In a similar example to that above, if a Good Cleric succeeded in Turning Ariean and driving her to flee the enemy Cleric's presence, Sylvea could immediately Rebuke Ariean; if the result of Sylvea's Rebuke check matches or overcomes the result of the enemy Cleric's Turn check, then Ariean is freed from the effects of being Turned.

Dispelling Turning can do nothing for an undead creature who is destroyed by a Cleric or Paladin who does exceptionally well at Turning them, so Dispelling the Turn is more of a stopgap measure; it's preferable to Bolster one's undead lackeys and allies in advance, then use any remaining Rebuke attempts for damage control, recovering whatever lackeys or allies should be affected by Turning.

I feel like I should make a new post in the rules topic about this.  I think that I've just typed enough content to do that.  

Wraith wrote:

I also ask - may I only invoke 1 of my Cleric abilities per day?

No, using one Cleric ability does not impede the uses of any other Cleric abilities.  Sylvea can cast any and all Cleric spells she has prepared, cast all of her prepared Domain spells (one per spell Level), use any Domain Abilities up to a certain number of times (ie. a Death Cleric's Death Touch once per day, or a Strength Cleric's Feat of Strength once per day) and Rebuke Undead up to three times, all in one day (or perhaps even more often than that, in very favorable conditions).

Wraith wrote:

What would happen should I cast Sanctuary?

The Sanctuary spell can shield the Cleric from the perceptions of any attacking creatures; anyone who attacks her must make a Will Save; if they fail the Save, she will appear to vanish before their eyes (even though she is still there); their attack on her will automatically fail, and they will be unable to perceive her or attack her until the Sanctuary spell expires (or until Sylvea breaks Sanctuary by attacking them, whichever comes first).

But the Sanctuary effect will have no affect on anyone who passes the Will Save.  And while the zombies are likely to fail the Will Save, Bavatur — even with his Wisdom diminished by his maddening diseases — is more likely to pass it and continue perceiving and interacting with Sylvea normally.  But still, dealing with one wizard is easier than dealing with one wizard and a gaggle of zombies, right?  

That was my reasoning. In a room full of enemies, I felt the safest bet is to buff myself rather than attempt to catch all of my enemies and possibly fail. There is still the Will Save, but you never know.

Now. In 5e - spells this powerful usually come with what's called a "Concentration Check" - that is: if the spell does not have a "Duration" but does have ongoing effects and something affects the Castor (like being harmed etc) they require a CON Save to keep the effects of the spell active.

Does this happen in 3e? Or will the spell last until they succeed their Will Save?

Ah, you caught me tinkering with that last reply!  I had just forgotten about the abilities from certain Cleric Domains, that's all.  

Wraith wrote:

That was my reasoning. In a room full of enemies, I felt the safest bet is to buff myself rather than attempt to catch all of my enemies and possibly fail. There is still the Will Save, but you never know.

So casting Sanctuary and giving herself a little more time to better prepare herself, buff herself up and/or do whatever else — fleeing the room entirely (though that does nothing for the resolution of her quest), running around to steal some treasures from the room, doing something about that ghoul on the chirurgeon's table, running up to the Heart and smacking it around, running up to Bavatur and smacking him around (but mind that frosty club of his...), whatever) — might be an option, provided that some or all of her enemies booch their Will Saves.  

Rebuking the undead would still be considered an attack and thus could break Sanctuary, but if Sylvea succeeds at Rebuking and rustles up some of Bavatur's lackeys — or at least stays their hands and prevents them from attacking, then that too could turn the tide in her favor.

Wraith wrote:

Now. In 5e - spells this powerful usually come with what's called a "Concentration Check" - that is: if the spell does not have a "Duration" but does have ongoing effects and something affects the Castor (like being harmed etc) they require a CON Save to keep the effects of the spell active.

Does this happen in 3e? Or will the spell last until they succeed their Will Save?

Concentration checks are used to continue casting a spell while the spellcaster's under attack, at least as far as 3e.  Like if Sylvea's casting a spell in a zombie's face and the zombie hauls off and smacks her, she would need to pass a Concentration check to continue casting; success means that she gets her spell off despite the "OOF!", failure interrupts the spell and she loses the spell as it fizzles out without effect.

But like you said, there are also certain spells which demand the caster's continued concentration and persist for as long as that concentration does (like a Wizard's Telekinesis spell); if the spellcaster does anything besides focusing on maintaining the spell (whether it be running across the room, drinking a potion, pulling a lever, opening a door, et al) or is attacked by an enemy, a Concentration check is needed to keep the spell going.

Spells which have set durations don't need concentration in order to persist, however; if Sylvea finds a Scroll of Blade Barrier (a 6th Level Cleric spell), she could read the scroll aloud to consume the scroll and cast Blade Barrier as if she were an 11th Level Cleric, the minimal Cleric Level at which Blade Barrier can normally be cast (therefore, Blade Barrier's Duration of 10 minutes per Cleric Level x Level 11 = a Blade Barrier that lasts 110 minutes), block a corridor with the Blade Barrier and then wander off to do something else; the Blade Barrier will still be slicing, chopping and stabbing away — and shredding anyone who tries to pass through it — for the full 110 minutes.

Concentration checks aren't needed in order to use certain magic items (like wands and rods) but are needed for sustained concentration if those magic items cast such spells (like a Wand of Telekinesis).  Casting spells from magic scrolls may still require Concentration checks if the character comes under attack while reading those scrolls aloud, and drinking potions doesn't require any Concentration checks but may still provoke Attacks of Opportunity; if you pop the cork on a potion and down it while you're toe-to-toe with an angry orc, don't be surprised if he takes advantage of your self-distraction by kicking you in the shin, bonking you over the head with his mace and calling you a dimwit.

So 3e's a bit more lenient than 5e in regard to spells and Concentration.  

Also, as far as this question:

Wraith wrote:

I also ask - may I only invoke 1 of my Cleric abilities per day?

Sylvea's two Cleric Domains are Magic and Protection.  The granted power from the Magic Domain is her ability to use magic items which are normally reserved for Sorcerers, Wizards and other Arcane spellcasters, items such as her Wand of Magic Missiles; she may use these magic items as if she were a Wizard of one-third of her Cleric Level (rounding down), and as a passive ability, its uses per day are limited only by the limited number of uses for whatever Arcane magic items she has at hand (like the charges remaining in her Wand of Magic Missiles).  She could use a Crystal Ball or any other magic item with unlimited uses an unlimited number of times, per day or otherwise.

The granted power from the Protection Domain is a Protective Ward, which confers a bonus to the next Saving Throw of whomever the Cleric touches, and that bonus is equal to the Cleric's Level.  So in this case, Sylvea — our favorite Level 5 Cleric — could touch somebody and grant them a +5 bonus to their next Save, no matter what kind of Save it is — be it Fortitude, Reflex or Will — nor what provokes the Saving Throw: an enemy spell, a trap, a contagious disease, poison in their wine, whatever.  The Protective Ward can only be used once per day.

And there's nothing in the rules which says that Sylvea can't touch herself to grant herself the Protective Ward, and I see absolutely no reason to invoke the least shred of Dungeon Master's Fiat to say otherwise.  So go wild with that!  

(Just be careful with the Ghoul's Touch spells and other touch attacks; we all remember that one guy in Disney's Aladdin remake wishing for the Midas Touch and turning himself to gold when he clapped his hands, right?   )

Okies. So Action Economy. (This is fun, essentially learning a new system)

In my current turn: can I use Sanctuary and the effects of the protective ward?

Wraith wrote:

Okies. So Action Economy.  (This is fun, essentially learning a new system)

Learning is fun!  

Wraith wrote:

In my current turn: can I use Sanctuary and the effects of the protective ward?

Either one or the other, but not both; both casting Sanctuary and imbuing a Protective Ward are full actions, and she only gets one full action per round (unless Sylvea is Hastened, but she's not).

Choose wisely, eh?